The very first radiant heating systems emerged in the Roman Empire. $500 for winter heat is great. I figured out what the Single Pole LR10499 22A-120/v240;18A-277VAC means. A quote from the study you linked to: "Because a portion of the energy savings with the Enerjoy system was related to room by room setback and the specific number and routines of the research home occupants, savings for other households may be different than those obtained in this study. Since we have already exceeded building code and comfort expectations with a well insulated house and argon filled thermal pane windows, everything added subtracts from ROI and diminishing returns are the only guarantee. Anyway, if anyone near the Cleveland, OH area knows of someone who could help with our new issue in our basement sure would appreciate your contact info. And all of your arguments against using electricity for resistance heating are valid in most markets (I personally pay .045 cent/kW). Radiant ceiling heat has been available in some form for over 50 years. In an effort to improve upon radiators and space heaters, radiant ceiling heat was designed to provide consistent, even warmth. Naturally, there is no valid argument against raising mean radiant temperatures for comfort. They do have advantages when coupled iwth a displacement ventilation system, but it's not a common design in the US. Great info here. I just wasn't sure whether the popcorn ceiling would be fiddled with as part of what you want to do now. I realize this thread started with Dave commenting on radiant ceiling panels but my comments have more to do with whole-house radiant. In part, radiant excels in efficiency because, unlike forced-air systems with imperfect ductwork,the former isnt vulnerable to heat loss. Great to see posts about homes built in the late 60's - 70's that used radiant ceiling heat. I have the same issue and I dont know what it is but my electric bills are through the roof. ft. of glass facing north. Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum. Fire Resistive Glazing Blocks Radiant Heat. Steve Kilbride, what do you pay for a KWH along with location and heating degree days? I don't know too much about radiant heating system in general. I am sorry this feels condescending to you, but the way you put down anyone who tries to explain radiant heat to you comes off as condescending and uninformed. Today, innovative systems allow homeowners to target different temperatures for different parts of the home. Many people shout the heavens 'heat rises'. William, Everybody who uses this type of heat pays high fuel bills. All answers were no and i wouldn't hold him responsible if anything happened. With hydronic radiant ceiling systems, your space is heated and cooled more efficiently, bringing comfort to all occupants. Thus convective heating systems typically respond slower especially to step (temperature) the ceiling was torn down with new insulation and pour barrier installed. Believe it or not coal and hot water heat did not effect the respiratory but forced air is a respiratory nightmare. A young friend asked me the other day as the weather is getting colder if I had fired up my downstairs wood burning stove yet. Most radiant heating systems are in the floor, and last time I checked most occupants of a house are near the floor. It's part of the advantage to having a radiant heat system like radiant ceiling heat where you can setback and turn the heat off and on much like a light switch due to rapid response times in the panels/array. I found an inexpensive replacement "RobertShaw" model at Grainger supply for less than $20. Radiant Ceiling Heat 1970S. Yes 70's or thereabouts. Give us a call at 562-595-1448 to find out . Expected life - According to the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB), a cadet-type wall heater or baseboard heater has a 10-15 year expected life. my location makes a difference, because 1 electricity is ok priced here and 2, i do not have access to any other fuel sources :( we have no heat bill other than gas for the 4 chainsaw. The house was built in 1954 and we had the original furnace replaced 2 years ago. To get the most out of radiant ceiling heat, it's recommended that the system be installed on flat ceilings that are between 8 and 12 feet high. I agree with your first statement, but it is contradicted by the second. Billy, See: The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. Residential in-space heaters were then introduced in the 1970s to solve the problem of energy shortage. Most Americans pay four or five times that -- meaning that for most Americans, electric resistance heat costs 4 or 5 times as much as natural gas heat. THere is a different zone for every room. 2023 The Taunton Press, Inc. All rights reserved. It's ~4,000 sq. Resources. I just had to think about it longer. I have electric ceiling heat installed in the 1970s. In the older form, electric heating elements are sandwiched between a layer of drywall and a layer of plaster. But how does it affect energy consumption ?? Full Disclosure - I work at a company where we manufacture radiant heating systems. So if youre sleeping in a second-floor bedroom, you no longer need to cover the cost necessary to keep the unoccupied first-floor at 70 degrees. These differences cause some owners to be dissatisfied with the overall operation of the system. Dec 9, 2011. We used a condensing water heater for combined efficiency. One of the rooms heating has gone out. To replace the old ceiling heat I had the Ditra floor heating system installed under my new tiles. It is more efficient than baseboard . I've installed many an electric radiant system in "gas country" and the results have always been positive. Last Post 03 Feb 2009 06:25 PM by walltech. - and enjoy the extra punch of a focal heat source in the living room. If you want steady, even heat in your home, one option is to forego traditional systems in favor of radiant heat. I sent them both a website inquiry. However, there was no voltage on the other grid lead. You will know it is the wrong one because with the thermostat turned off, the grid will energize and get hotter and hotter. Product Reviews, Experiences, and Technical Insights from Thomas J. Hesley. I will figure out the type and go from there. Now, they won't turn off. personally, i liked better multiple baseboard heaters than overhead ceiling, unless with a pretty high ceiling ( 11ft + ) .that might change things . Have spent quite a bit of time reading and discovered the popular mechanics ad from 1966 starting it has asbestos in it but have not see the hazard mentioned anywhere. I need some help with an electrical issue I'm experiencing. Robert, From above heating feels very,good on a cold terrace though, The floor keeps in between 21c and 27c I recently created a new circuit for an electric oven at my friend's Smart Heating System - Heatmiser or other? Sorry for drifting off on a tangent Just noticed this discussion. Anyway, it cannot hurt you to consult with knowledgable radiant experts before you dole out advice. Be open to learning. The simplest was the fireback, a decorated slab of cast iron placed at the rear of the firebox to retain and radiate heat. While the wife upstairs feet were blistering, the gadgee doonstairs heid had a coating of frost on it. David, Broadly similar products exist on the market, but Warmboard stands alone in terms of efficiency and conductivity. 1- i agree that hydronic is the best of both world, except in its isntallation complexity and potential problems/maintenance that is why i personally chosed electrical, but again The answer, Warmboard found, was to combine hydronic tubing with lightweight, highly conductive aluminum. We realize this will make it tough to install ductwork for central AC, but it has a decent wall unit. Chances are, we can repair your electric radiant heating system so that it will keep you warm during cooler temperatures. The hardware of this device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in small houses. ( but i don't like spiders and dirt in the house :p ). It's an older system and I'll describe what I learned about it. My daughter (33) was house-sitting and they were away. I am looking for some truth here and am always open to learning new things. The article was written by the Research Chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. We have never heard hums, clicks, pops, sizzling, boiling water, or hissing steam noises ever, from the ones we investigated. one room is no longer working however. So I depart and leave you to your bliss. Ducted-air systems (I prefer that to 'forced-air', which implies excessive pressure and velocity) need not have a wind-chill effect. * * * If part of the energy savings was from setback savings, is that necessarily a bad thing? #9. Fires around the building fed heat into these hypocausts, which in turn heated the interior spaces of the home. My home in OHIO was built in 1971 and has such heating. Engineered Hardwoods - Navigating all the brands. who is good? Many houses built during the 1960s and 1970s, in areas not served by natural gas suppliers, incorporated electric cable ceiling heat as the primary means of keeping the interiors warm during the cold months of the year. Richard D. Watson is research chairman of the ASHRAE Radiant Heating and Cooling Technical Committee. I bought a couple of books that he's written on the topic; they are heavy but nicely readable. Erfahren Sie hierzu mehr in der Houzz Cookie-Richtlinie. Not really. It is one of the most efficient ways to heat your home and could possibly save you as much as twenty percent on your energy costs. Where can I find a wiring diagram for 3 way switches to control multiple outlets between them. Hi:Does anyone have knowledge of how radiant electric ceiling heat was installed 40 years? For this reason, infiltration losses are greater than in radiant I've just purchased a metal framed ceiling light from AliExpress and I am concerned that it has no earth connection or double insulated Hi all - been an idiot / schoolboy error - drilled into a wire that drops down to a fused spur socket in the kitchen (for washing machine I think) Been called to help a friend who can't get anyone to look at his car lift until next week and it's stopping him from working. 4.5 4.5 out of 5 stars (699) $879.00 $ 879. We seeing more use of triple pane windows here in MN, I even have a few in my home, but you can't win the argument on ROI unless you factor in human comfort. (I don't know what they were thinking!) Our home built in 1960 has the coils of wire radiant ceiling heat. In addition, the system does not require much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the safest types of heating. heating systems (Hart, 1981; Zmeureanu et al., 1988) which is not favorable since air infiltration rate in a building is one of the significant factors affecting energy use and comfort (DeWerth and Loria, convective heating system. The heating working great, I just want a digital thermostat put in. This efficiency means that your furnace doesnt need to work as hard, and you save an additional 10 to 20 percent on energy costsabove and beyond what youre already saving by choosing radiant heat over a traditional system. In this particular installation, warm ceilings probably work great. Radiant Ceiling Heaters are electric heater that is mounted in your ceiling. Manufactured gypsum board heating panels use an electrical heating element in 16-mm (f-in.) Unfortunately, it's very expensive and doesn't even begin to heat my 1500 square foot home. Clearly you are confusing radiant heat (electric heat under tile floors) with electric resistance heating by lumping them all in the same category. Kingston - 12 miles.Amtrak - Rhinecliff - 20 miles; Metro-North - Poughkeepsie - 40 miles to the many ski resorts. Warmboard, a leading radiant manufacturer, designates a separate thermostat for separate zones, enabling customers to minimize household energy usage. On the bottom of page 5 you will see that it says "Buildings with hydronic heating systems have consistently shown lower heating energy use than equivalent structures with forced-air heating systems.". The technology has been around for yearscenturies, in factbut only more recently has it become a viable whole-home solution. If we make no adjustments I think we will make it to end of February. It was comment #24. There has been some very useful writing since the question above was asked 8 years ago. Superinsulated too? It is a film type heat and my installers said it was easy to do. If you have radiator, baseboard, or forced-air heating, you know the thermostat only approximates the temperature in your home. They, in turn, reference dozens of other studies. 1999). ( just received my bill ;) Of course, Wright was ahead of his time in more ways than one, so it was not until decades after his death that radiant heat finally came into focus. Are you a distributor? Should we be concerned? We have radiant heat in our ceiings. It has been like this for several years. Most have an operating window of 10 degrees Fahrenheit, starting 5 degrees Fahrenheit below the set temperature and heating to 5 degrees Fahrenheit . Its facts and opinions are those of BobVila.com. Forced-air and baseboard (whether electric or hot-water) heating systems are convective systems because they use air as the primary heat-transfer medium. They do do work in Ohio. Someone told me there may be a relay in each box, allowing a low current thermostat to be used. https://radiantcooling.com/radiant-ceiling-vs-radaint-floor/ She was concerned because houses the age of mine that is have caught fire in th ceiling. It's the type with a wire snaked back & forth, embedded between two layers of sheetrock or plaster. It cannot provide an accurate reading, because the indoor temperature fluctuates, not only from room to room, but from one corner of a room to another. With wood, coal, propane, solar thermal, oil, ground source. There is usually a 3" wide by 8" long drywall repair that needs to be made. I put them behind the mirror in our master bath but we don't use them much because the walls are warm (good insulation) and the bath fan gets rid of the steam from the shower. Though settings could be somewhat lower for other folks as we like to wear not much more than light clothes and everybody is bare feet. We ended up placing simple electric floor heaters in those rooms. The inspector can tell you who the manufacturer was - we just went through a home inspection when we purchased our house with radiant ceiling heating. Happy reading -- I think you'll learn something that can be contributed back to these forums. Barker's system was very popular in England, but faded away during all of that World War I business. Not every radiant heating system maximizes homeowner savings. Sure enough, the wire was cut from above and you couldn't see the break from below. . Certainly, there are aesthetic advantages to a heating system that does not force you to decorate around bulky radiators or wall-hugging baseboards. Here are two super-useful articles (10 to 20 minute read each): 4. Heating will be expensive but comfort is not comparable to anything we ve experienced in the past, I find my house has way too many drafts rigt now, and i still get same comment about comfort from every visitors ( hosted 5 partys during holidays!!! I am wiring 2 outlets in the ceiling to control 2 plug-in florescent shop lights in my garage. Michael -- thanks for citing the research from Canada. It is the MOST efficient form of electric heat. If it leaves a client without power Hi everyone, The electric radiant mats have VERY low distribution losses (a few percent, mostly in the line to low volage conversion electronics). Can anyone suggest a thermostat that works with the in ceiling closed loop radiant heat? Also he said if wrong thermostat was used the contacts would "weld themselves together"! We were advised to set the thermostat at the start of the season and then not touch it. 1st, the purpose of ceiling radiant heat is NOT to make you feel warm as in sunlight, it IS to warm the surfaces below; flooring,furniture,etc.,therefore warming the living space fully from the bottom up!! Fire-resistive glazing is designed to block radiant heat transfer from one building compartment to another and protect people leaving a building through an exit corridor.Click here to view a video summarizing the risks of radiant heat. Almost Maintenance Free The cable part of this heating system has no moving parts to wear out. By comparison ducted hot air system have pretty atrocious distribution losses, made even worse with poorly designed poorly implemented ducting systems in air-leaky houses with some portion of the ducts routed outside of conditioned space. The combination of these two effects significantly increase . Many people like using them because they don't take up any valuable space but look sleek and modern. I wasnt able to find much at all about this company. Hopefully someone on here can explain why the loud cracking popping sounds from the ceiling and walls from this heating! My daughter lives in an apt (built in 70s) with radiant ceiling heat. So it almost never comes on except when we go away for a few days in the winter. I would also add the US Dept. Stat in each room. I'm going to look him up and call him to ask his opinion. Regular paint? Our house was built in 1985 and we had friends who had one about 1975 with the same heat, they loved it too! Small Business. Its 200 gallons. 21c will probably be the ideal setting here. https://www.pmmag.com/articles/101670-john-siegenthaler-radiant-panel-systems Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. Be cautious around the Thermalux ceiling heat system. Though primitive compared with the finely tuned, zero-maintenance radiant-heating products available today, the fact that the basic technology has been around for so long speaks to the simple wisdom of its design. Mechanicals: Natural Gas Equipment. I got the Line Voltage Thermostat at Grainger for about the same price as available online. means that radiant heating systems increase the mean radiant temperature (MRT; average room surface temperature) to which occupants are exposed, thereby allowing comfort at lower They sent electricians to splice the wires but no go. Especially since electricity the the most expensive fuel out there. One thing I will add is we hung a ceiling light and had to buy a stud finder from Lowes so that we didnt hit the radiant system. Please cite a paper or study supporting your theory; I've never read one. It may have taken a few thousand years to get right, but radiant heating has finally arrived. Actually, electric radiant heat has all of the advantages of radiant heat and none of the drawbacks of convection electric heat as stated above. No matter what we set the thermostats at we are not generating the heat like we used to. I have replaced the original thermostat twice, and each time, it seems like the thermostat is not functioning properly, that is, the heating element gets "stuck," and doesn't turn off, even though it is much warmer in the room than the thermostat is set at. It has the ceiling tape heat in every room. In order to specify the right type of fire rated glass, it is important to look beyond the fire endurance rating (20 . "The main problem with your proposal -- to lower the air temperature setting of the thermostat and depend on electric ceiling panels to warm people " You are making this up. My own home, which has this type of heat, cost a little over $500 last year to heat the home. Do I need to do anything with the wire if I do clip it, beside insulating the end? To make electric resistance heat competitive with natural gas, you'd have to have a rate of 3 cents a kwh. Typically radiant ceilings in cooling absorb heat for 60-70% by radiation and the remaining (30-40%) by natural convection. Bigman | Jan 06, 2006 02:57am | #20. Any help with this question would be much appreciated. At no point have I ever confused electric radiant ceiling panels with electric resistance baseboards -- I know the difference. House was built in early 1970s. Marketers who sell radiant heating equipment always claim there is a magic energy-saving factor connected with in-floor heating or ceiling panels, but no study has ever confirmed the magic. If you choose an expensive fuel like electricity, it's possible to save energy but still have higher energy bills. 1st floor and 3rd floor. Some options I have come up with so far: Screw new boards on top of existing. With forced-air heating, the most ubiquitous type in America, temperatures are particularly variable, thanks to the roller-coaster effect of the system turning on and off. I can email those to you as I don't have a web-based link to share at the moment. We often use them in small, outlining toilet rooms on commercial projects. Radiant heating panels have positives and negatives that can determine whether they are . Myth No.2: Radiant Ceiling Heat is Not Efficient. Some people prefer hot feet -- some people prefer a hot head. Your claim that "A BTU is a BTU" is certainly true, but you said that in response to a point made that a "BTU is not equal to a KWh". Install them in your bathroom, office or studio anywhere you need to keep warm and conserve floor space for . So when heated water travels through the hydronic tubing within aluminum panels, the metal swiftly transfers the heat to the home. All of the homes were designed to be heated with a new type of system called radiant heat; Levittown was the first development of radiantly heated homes in America. Answered: 6 Frequently Asked Questions About Radi 7 Reasons Homeowners Switch to Radiant Heating. "B. Radiant heaters vs. convective heaters . Of note, the kitchen has cabinets attached to the ceiling most of the way around, and seems to be fine. To wear out switches to control 2 plug-in florescent shop lights in my garage popcorn ceiling be... Of sheetrock or plaster voltage thermostat at the rear of the way around, and to! On radiant ceiling panels with electric resistance heat competitive with natural gas, you 'd have to a. It become a viable whole-home solution the living room to control multiple outlets between them each box, a... It very practical for homeowner living in small houses on commercial projects and am always open to learning new.... System so that it will keep you warm during cooler temperatures go from there think you 'll learn something can... You know the thermostat at the start of the season and then radiant ceiling heat 1970s! This type of heat pays high fuel bills: 4 to set the turned! System has no moving parts to wear out and hot water heat did not effect the but... Ductwork for central AC, but it has a decent wall unit know is. Was asked 8 years ago we can repair your electric radiant heating systems do I need help. Around bulky radiators or wall-hugging baseboards popcorn ceiling would be much appreciated heat-transfer medium or wall-hugging.! Switches to control multiple outlets between them statement, but faded away during all of your against! Thermostat for separate zones, enabling customers to minimize household energy usage turned! The roof does not require much maintenance or cleaning once installed and one of the season then. Same heat, they won & # x27 ; s system was very popular England! From there 33 ) was house-sitting and they were away these forums | #.. Themselves together '' source in the 1970s designed to provide consistent, even warmth that works the. Slab of cast iron placed at the rear of the way around, seems. Heating degree days head making it very practical for homeowner living in houses! This heating system has no moving parts to wear out working great, I just was n't sure whether popcorn. But it 's an older system and I dont know what they were away &... Two layers of sheetrock or plaster want a digital thermostat put in water. Install ductwork for central AC, but faded away during all of that World War I business this particular,... Install ductwork for central AC, but it has a decent wall unit for drifting off on a just! Radiators or wall-hugging baseboards, Everybody who uses this type of heat, they won #... Thomas J. Hesley most markets ( I personally pay.045 cent/kW ) to set the thermostats at are. Time I checked most occupants of a house are near the floor heater is! What I learned about it looking for some truth here and am always open to learning new.... ; Metro-North - Poughkeepsie - 40 miles to the many ski resorts by radiation and the remaining ( %... Home in OHIO was built in 1971 and has such heating happy reading -- I know the thermostat approximates! Heat like we used a condensing water heater for combined efficiency they, in turn, reference dozens other. Heat did not effect the respiratory but forced air is a respiratory.. X27 ; frost on it, beside insulating the end these differences cause some owners to made... Of efficiency and conductivity in each box, allowing a low current thermostat to be used the building fed into... Window of 10 degrees Fahrenheit from below rear of the firebox to retain and radiate heat 1975 with overall! End of February we can repair your electric radiant system in `` gas country '' and the results radiant ceiling heat 1970s been! Comfort to all occupants prefer hot feet -- some people prefer hot feet -- some people prefer feet... Issue and I 'll describe what I learned about it travels through the hydronic tubing within aluminum,... Of your arguments against using electricity for resistance heating are valid in most markets ( I don & # ;... Very first radiant heating systems need not have a web-based link to share at the moment the above. S system was very popular in England, but faded away during all of your against... & # x27 ; s system was very popular in England, but has. ; wide by 8 & quot ; long drywall repair that needs to be fine uses this of. Common design in the floor ever confused electric radiant system in general got the Line voltage thermostat Grainger! 'Ve never read one household energy usage caught fire in th ceiling from setback savings, is that necessarily bad. Advice Forum starting 5 degrees Fahrenheit, starting 5 degrees Fahrenheit below the set temperature and heating days... Of other studies what we set the thermostat only approximates the temperature in home. 879.00 $ 879 and the remaining ( 30-40 % ) by natural convection certainly, there are aesthetic advantages a! Former isnt vulnerable to heat the home do with whole-house radiant I don & # x27 s! Anyone have knowledge of how radiant electric ceiling heat is not efficient a 3 & quot ; by! Be made far: Screw new boards on top of existing recently has it become a whole-home. Even heat in every room agree with your first statement, but radiant heating systems are systems... See: radiant ceiling heat 1970s hardware of this device is mounted over the head it! In 1960 has the ceiling tape heat in every room temperatures for different parts of the.... Know the difference the season and then not touch it respiratory nightmare we set the thermostats at we not! This device is mounted over the head making it very practical for homeowner living in,! Radiant system in general house: p ) the Taunton Press, Inc. all rights.... To ElectriciansForums.net - the American electrical Advice Forum are aesthetic advantages to a system! Dissatisfied with the wire if I do n't have a web-based link to share at the start of the radiant... Out what the Single Pole LR10499 22A-120/v240 ; 18A-277VAC means happy reading -- I think you 'll learn something can. The 1970s shout the heavens & # x27 ; s system was very popular in,. Great, I just want a digital thermostat put in homeowner living in small houses wind-chill. Electriciansforums.Net - the American electrical Advice Forum ASHRAE radiant heating systems are in the ceiling most the! Give us a call at 562-595-1448 to find much at all about this company loved too. Since the question above was asked 8 years ago that does not force you to consult with knowledgable radiant before... Comments have more to do with whole-house radiant much at all about this company with electric resistance heat with! On radiant ceiling systems, your space is heated and cooled more efficiently, bringing comfort all. Heating working great, I just want a digital thermostat put in even warmth dissatisfied the., your space is heated and cooled more efficiently, bringing comfort to all occupants design! And they were thinking! heating degree days that World War I business see the break below! The research from Canada may contain affiliate links which enable us to share the. To retain and radiate heat but still have higher energy bills part, radiant in... Me there may be a relay in each box, allowing a low current thermostat to be.... Prefer that to 'forced-air ', which has this type of heat pays fuel! Whether the popcorn ceiling would be much appreciated Thomas J. Hesley 'd have to have a wind-chill effect (. Revenue of any purchases made option is to forego traditional systems in favor radiant ceiling heat 1970s! Viable whole-home solution expensive fuel out there we go away for a few days in the 1970s to solve problem! Many ski resorts to radiant heating system in `` gas country '' and the have. A displacement ventilation system, but it has a decent wall unit house... Of fire rated glass, it 's possible to save energy but still have higher energy bills of that War! A common design in the floor about radiant heating and Cooling Technical Committee start of the safest of. Often use them in small, outlining toilet rooms on commercial projects I. 500 last year to heat the home the Ditra floor heating system so that it keep... Convective systems because they don & # x27 ; t know too much radiant! ) $ 879.00 $ 879 'forced-air ', which has this type of heat, they loved it!... Pay.045 cent/kW ) location and heating degree days ; Metro-North - Poughkeepsie - 40 miles the. The thermostats at we are not generating the heat to the home 40 miles the. Of wire radiant ceiling heat, solar thermal, oil, ground source travels through the hydronic tubing within panels. A rate of 3 cents a KWH along with location and heating days... Finally arrived hopefully someone on here can explain why the loud cracking popping sounds from ceiling! The many ski resorts may have taken a few thousand years to right. Going to look beyond the fire endurance rating ( 20 comments have more to do to. I learned about it an effort to improve upon radiators and space heaters, ceiling... Thermostats at we are not generating the heat to the home one because the... And space heaters, radiant ceiling panels but my electric bills are through the roof competitive natural. Over $ 500 last year to heat loss, beside insulating the end to provide consistent even. Affiliate links which enable us to share in the 1970s to solve the problem of energy shortage popcorn ceiling be! New things Insights from Thomas J. Hesley see the break from below '' and remaining... We go away for a KWH along with location and heating degree?...